Traditional knowledge

00:00 Tiahni Adamson: When Ghost Gums peel their bark, the Daly River mob know bull shark are fat and ready to be hunted. When Red Kapok flowers bloom, we know freshwater crocodiles have laid their eggs. When the sun cross-coordinates with the north west corner of what is now Victoria Square (in Adelaide), the Kaurna Meyunna or Kaurna people know that it's the beginning of Warltati or summer. For Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, our understanding of the seasons provides a glimmer into our ever-expanding knowledge system, where everything is connected, has a role to play and is respected. Developed over 65,000 years, this intricate understanding helps to guide how we operate in the world and elucidates our ability to live in harmony with the land and how to care for it. When these systems listen and talk with each other, the possibilities are limitless. I'm descended from the Kaurareg nation in Zenadh Kes, or the Torres Strait Islands. My journey towards understanding the importance of this knowledge, my ancestry, sense of self, and way of moving through the world has not always been a straight line. I, too, am on a journey of discovery.

Climate change is here, and you've heard all about what that means. Warmer temperatures, extreme weather and biodiversity loss. But what about biodiversity as a solution in and of itself. This podcast is about where nature and climate change intersect. Join us as we traverse the back roads of this magnificent continent, finding the stories of hope that we all need right now. I'm Tiahni Adamson and this is Big Sky Country, a podcast by Bush Heritage. In this episode, we're on a journey to learn more about First Nations knowledge, particularly women's knowledge. How to keep it strong and how it can be used to create bright solutions for country in a changing climate.

02:21 Aunty Bernice Hookey: I love empowering my people in a way through how they understand, how they're connected to themselves, to their roots, and for the greater good out there so that, we can not just survive. we're not just here to keep surviving, we're here to thrive.

02:42 Tiahni Adamson: This is Aunty  Bernice Hookey or Aunty Ber. Our paths first crossed when I was trying to make my own journey. Trying to find a way forward. Yanalangami is where we met. It's a program for First Nations women about creating a culturally safe space to share, connect, learn, heal and grow together. Just like our ecosystems, our First Nations knowledge in Australia is threatened. Epistemic injustice is the systemic silencing and exclusion of a knowledge system by a dominant culture, which isn't unique to just our country. It's a global issue with far reaching impacts on people and our natural world. Since colonisation began, its ongoing structures, such as discrimination, exploitation and dispossession, have placed immense pressure on the survival of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people and our knowledge.

03:40 Aunty Bernice Hookey: I'm a proud Waanyi woman from the Lower Gulf of Carpentaria. I was born and raised in Mount Isa on Kalkadoon country. My family is all from the lower Gulf of Carpentaria. I now live, learn, work, play on beautiful Wulgurukaba and neighbouring Bindal country.

04:00 Tiahni Adamson: Programs like Yanalangami and people like Aunty Ber are a tonic to epistemic injustice and are helping to reverse the ongoing damages of the past 200 years.

04:10 Aunty Bernice Hookey: I went through a time as a young woman in my life where you wouldn't wish it upon your worst enemy to go through such harsh circumstances at the time around a violent relationship. I still continued to walk forward. I will say I partied a lot. I was called the social butterfly. And in saying that being a social butterfly, you wear a mask, you can hide pain and that's what happened. I worked out that I just wanted to always be happy, but underneath I was actually sad, my health was deteriorating with unpacked grief, and it all came crashing down on me in my late 30s.

05:04 Tiahni Adamson: Aunty Ber's complex experience led her to get involved in the program, and she helped teach me that strength and resilience can't be achieved without making space for vulnerability and softness.

05:15 Aunty Bernice Hookey: I love helping from a stance of a matriarchal empowerment and the motherhood in that comes out quite strongly because I show care because there is potential in that. Where something is not right with this someone then they can be helped and I love it. I do work with an Aboriginal education college, Tranby, and every day is a learning day. So, I've yeah, been walking forward with how I extend that out there to heal whoever I am in circle with. And I've been fortunate to share that journey now coming on five years.

06:03 Tiahni Adamson: By connecting deeply with her cultural heritage, Aunty Ber was able to transform her pain and grief on this journey. She realized she wasn't alone and could help others walking a similar pathway like me.

06:16 Aunty Bernice Hookey: Beautiful Tiahni is one of those women that has come through that journey and I'm so proud also to be sitting here with last year's Young Australian of the Year for South Australia. So proud. So, we just be guided by how we take on what we take on and even through the tears, the tears are healthy, our voice can croak, our voice can break. When we feel that emotion, but it's OK to feel that emotion because that's the strength in it. That’s the vulnerability to allow for how we and how I keep doing what I do because I love empowering my people.

07:03 Tiahni Adamson: At Yanalangami, I confronted my pain, stepped into my power, and mapped my journey with an emboldened vision for the future. It certainly wasn't easy, but it was necessary to unpack the past to start healing for the present and future version of myself. Proudly carrying with me the power of one of the world's oldest ongoing civilizations.

07:29 Aunty Bernice Hookey: So, remember the resilience of your ancestors and that spiritual connection within to allow for how the future resilience for you helps you to be guided and walk tall and proud, even through the tough times, even through the heartaches.

08:01 Tiahni Adamson: For me, that connection she talks about is physical, spiritual and emotional. When I was young, I would sit in nature and think a lot. I spent time under many a tree or in the ocean trying to define my place in the world. And when I found moments of peace and inspiration, this peculiar purple light would appear, framing what I saw in front of me. To some, that might sound a little woo woo, but to me, it's real as day. I still see it today and its purpose has become clearer with time gone by. It's my connection to my ancestors, a rich lineage of past and present elders and old people guiding me. They're comforting me and providing a bedrock of knowledge, love and direction. I feel an innate sense of knowing that I'm on the right track when I experience this guidance and a deep feeling of connection to a life force that reminds me, I'm never truly alone in life or in loss.

Knowledge presents itself in many forms. It's not just transferred through people, stories and arts. It comes through messages from plants and animals, signals from the landscapes and from country. As young people, we're taught to listen deeply to our intuition and to trust a deep knowing within ourselves. Part of maintaining connection to knowledge and connection to culture as an adult is through Dadirri or deep listening to these signals and signs to understand our world in a holistic and deepened way. So, after Yanalangami, what was next in my journey? A fire had always been burning within me since I was a young person to protect country and speak up about First Nations inequities. Aunty Ber stoked this fire with a newfound confidence to step up into my power and lead with vulnerability and work to protect country and show up for mob.

10:00 Annette Williams: Strong ladies out on country, telling the stories out on country and being strong.

10:07 Tiahni Adamson: That's elder and Birriliburu Ranger Annette Williams, a Traditional Custodian of Martu country, which is located in the arid centre of Western Australia.

10:16 Annette Williams: We travelled from Wiluna to Carnegie, we camped there. Then we came here to Mangkili. So this is the story about the ladies coming out here enjoying ourselves.

10:33 Tiahni Adamson: And that is describing a recent woman-only ranger trip to Mangkili camp, supported by Bush Heritage and Desert Support Services. Mangkili is in the southeast corner of the Birriliburu Indigenous Protected Area or IPA and has long been a place where people from across the deserts would come together to share and grow knowledge and pass it on to the younger generation. Epistemic injustice is just one challenge our knowledge system faces. Another is access to country. Our knowledge system was traditionally oral, and our intellect told through story, song, dance, art, and ceremony. Our stories are held within the diverse landscapes across this continent. They then swim out through its waters, grace its islands, and finally defy gravity, circling the earth through the stars.

But colonisation bringing about disease, dispossession and forced removal from our homelands has made access to country for a lot of mob challenging. Country is everything to us, including it being our library. So, it's important that we maintain our connection to it.

11:57 Stella Shipway: My name is Stella Shipway. I am the Healthy Country Manager for the WA deserts with Bush Heritage.

12:06 Tiahni Adamson: Now we're deep in the desert on Martu country to learn how Martu people are ensuring familiar voices, footsteps and faces are returning to country to practice and keep culture and knowledge alive.

12:18 Stella Shipway: Last year, two of the Birriliburu Land Management company directors. Two women started talking about we need a women's trip, we said yeah, let's make it happen.

12:28 Tiahni Adamson: Stella's role is to support Martu people and deliver their Healthy Country plan. The plan involves various community-led strategies and goals supported by western science and conservation to help keep country healthy. It's operationalised by the Birriliburu Ranger program. The Birriliburu IPA comprises 6.6 million hectares of Tjampi or spinifex blanketed dunes, seas of silvery Acacia, claypans and colourful parades of desert wildflowers. In its southwest corner, there's a site that shows evidence of Martu people’s occupation dating back 50,000 years. This is the earliest evidence of people living in Australia's sandy deserts. Martu people have cared for this place for many generations and build a sophisticated understanding of and despite the challenging ongoing impacts of colonization, they're determined to keep their connection to the landscape strong.

13:32 Jennifer Morgan: We've seen so many Sturt Peas on the road. So, I was like really happy.

13:41 Tiahni Adamson: This is Birriliburu ranger Jennifer Morgan, and she's talking about Sturt Desert Peas or, as it's known in Martu language, marlukururrpa, an iconic wildflower. She's reflecting on some of the signs of healthy country the ladies witnessed on the trip over six days. Country was observed, checked on and cared for by familiar family groups. Bush medicine was made, artworks weaved and painted, stories were shared, and respect paid to the old ways. Martu knowledge was fortified and passed on strengthening country and its women.
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Or, as Birriliburu Ranger Yvonne Ashwin says.

14:27 Yvonne Ashwin: We've got older ones and we've got middle-aged ones and the young ones. So, the older ones, sharing their knowledge on to the young ones. And when they get older, you know, if anything happen to us, pass it on to the next generation.

14:47 Tiahni Adamson: In Martu community, women have distinct roles that sometimes don't involve men. This system is in place to ensure knowledge is accurately encoded as it's passed down. Women play a significant role in caring for certain places, and the procurement of particular food sources. Moreover …

15:04 Yvonne Ashwin: We've got the women's power.

15:09 Tiahni Adamson: Research continues to show that our ancestors accurately recorded sea level changes over the past 10,000 years and there are many other examples, including volcanic shifts and meteoric events that are recorded in our story, song, dance, and art, which demonstrates the resilience of our knowledge systems over a very, very long time. As mentioned earlier, traditionally our knowledge was sustained orally and memorized with strong associations to physical places on country, complementing how our brains have evolved to tie memory to place. The systems with which knowledge is passed down is critical to its survival. It's incredibly important that our elders pass it on to the right person at the right time. Those who have shown they're ready to hold it.

16:02 Jo Griffin: It’s about responsibility, isn't it? And having that maturity to protect that knowledge.

16:08 Tiahni Adamson: That's Jo Griffin, proud Olkola woman and Healthy Country planner for Bush Heritage.

16:13 Jo Griffin: This knowledge has been around for so long and there's a reason why it's been able to be passed on is because we have systems in place which within our culture to ensure that that knowledge is protected.

16:27 Tiahni Adamson: Over the past few years, Jo has been working on a solution to safeguard our process of passing on knowledge and making sure it can be stored forever.

16:35 Jo Griffin: It's a shame about how, shame is an understatement, about colonization and the loss of all that knowledge. Those of us that are fortunate enough to still have knowledge be able to be passed to us from our elders. I don't take that lightly. That responsibility that I have, that ability to have access to my culture’s knowledge. I can then go and learn things about what's happening, particularly with climate change, and be informed by the cultural knowledge to make better decisions.

17:07 Tiahni Adamson: Jo and her team have taken these concepts and applied them to a new system that brings together cultural knowledge and modern technology.

17:15 Jo Griffin: The Integrated Knowledge system was developed out of a need for the safe storage of cultural knowledge, to have the opportunity for everybody who is working in the space where we're dealing with ICIP, that's Indigenous Cultural and Intellectual Property, a way to safely and respectfully care for knowledge.

17:39 Tiahni Adamson: The Integrated Knowledge system is a collaboration between Bush Heritage Australia and the University of Melbourne, and is led by Bundjalung man, Oliver Costello, and Jo’s brother, Olkola man and tech wizard John Pender using sophisticated software. They're basically building an app or digital platform that holds and disseminates knowledge based on location, context, and users’ rights to access it, carrying on traditional practices through a modern format. It's built to combat threats to the persistence of our knowledge, including the emerging trend of young people moving off country or being away from traditional learning environments.

18:19 Jo Griffin: There's nothing like this system, it's cost effective. Anybody can use it. It's safe to store knowledge, it's password protected. It just gives us a way to safely and respectfully care for knowledge.

18:36 Tiahni Adamson: It will include cultural stories and practices, locations of culturally significant sites, species information, population data, ecosystem and habitat conditions, audio of elders talking about country and culturally informed land management.

18:53 Jo Griffin: It’s going to be run by indigenous governance. We're really passionate about making sure that this system is going to be there forever. This is a system that's been developed by traditional owners or traditional custodians for the safe keeping of cultural knowledge, and it's going to be continued to have been looked after and cared for by Traditional Custodians. A problem that I've found in the science space is that often Western scientists don't understand the value of cultural knowledge because it's not recorded in the same way that Western science is. And because it doesn't have spreadsheets and data tables and journals that are written down, western scientists can often invalidate cultural knowledge and say that it's not as valuable or that and maybe it's not so trustworthy. So, we know that that's absolutely not true, and that that's a silly way to think. And how important our knowledge system is and how incredible it is that it's thrived and lived, and I guess resisted and being resilient through 65,000 years.

20:02 Tiahni Adamson: Bringing cultural knowledge into the world of modern technology is a way of safeguarding it from the threats of modernity. But what I love about it is, it's resisting the need to adapt simply to placate the needs or expectations of the western world. The system is designed specifically in line with traditional ways of holding and sharing knowledge, and all the while it's useful for everyone, not just traditional custodians.

20:27 Jo Griffin: Within this, the system you can record so oral stories. You can take photographs or videos as well. It's really adapted to be informed by cultural knowledge. So, like you say, it's not qualitative, it is really quantitative. Yeah, there are really a lot of different ways that you could use this system, and it's not just for traditional custodians. It's for everybody.

20:57 Tiahni Adamson: The platform is inclusive and built to benefit country and people, which will be particularly valuable for land managers or conservation organizations like Bush Heritage who by working on traditional custodians’ land, want to ensure that any capture of cultural heritage or indigenous cultural intellectual property is dealt with appropriately.

21:19 Jo Griffin: Specifically, within Bush Heritage, we work with a lot of Traditional Custodians, and we are really fortunate enough to be able to build strong relationships with partners all over the country and we do get access to their stories and photos, and we don't want to keep those photos of all those stories within the organisation itself. We want to give it back.

21:44 Tiahni Adamson: It's important that organizations aren't holding onto ICIP or Indigenous Cultural Intellectual Property that isn't theirs to keep.

21:52 Jo Griffin: From a western science perspective, I think having more of the traditional knowledge available at the touch of a button, if the Traditional Owners want that knowledge to be shared, is going to be really valuable.

22:10 Tiahni Adamson: In our data-driven world, governments and inter government bodies have struggled to create culturally responsive programs. This puts First Nations knowledge further at risk.

22:20 Jo Griffin: It provides more evidence for us to be able to protect the country and to protect our culture as well. So, when the mining company says to us, we want to put a mine here and you have to prove to us about, is this a cultural side or not? We have more of an opportunity to share or negotiate because you can put on the map let's say a radius of a special restricted access area. It's actually detrimental to us spiritually, physically, to go into certain areas of the country and most of the time mining companies want to mine in the most culturally significant places. And it's this, it just provides another opportunity for us to say, well, this is a culturally significant place, you cannot mine here. It's more, it just provides more evidence for us to be able to protect country and protect our culture as well.

23:19 Tiahni Adamson: So tick tick tick. Another benefit of this tool is that it can be used for good planning or to prevent poor planning of country. As I mentioned, country is our library. Before colonization without books, Google, YouTube, David Attenborough or ChatGPT, our people knew every species of plant and animal, including how they interacted with the seasons. They understood weather patterns, family lines, genealogy, law, land management and so much more, all in relation to their country. It's phenomenal and another incredible part of this orally stored system is it’s flexible and adaptable to nature. We shift when country shifts, as does our knowledge, making us masters at monitoring our environment and holding a valuable bounty on information in relation to climate change.

24:12 Jo Griffin: It's not just tech, it's nature-based solutions. It's culture solutions. For example. I'm very fortunate in my country that really, we're not seeing the impacts of climate change as much as somebody who may be coastal, but we're still seeing heat waves and changes to the migration of some of our totemic species. And I suppose I would like to see a strategy to help those totemic species to stay on that country.

24:46 Tiahni Adamson: Being on a journey of revitalising culture for ourselves and our families isn't straightforward, and our knowledge systems have been under immense pressure over the last 240 years. The dialogue around language and traditional knowledge has often been from a deficit perspective about what we've lost and what's been taken away. I wish at times in my life when I felt disconnected or concerned about the persistence of culture and knowledge, that there was more amplification on the solutions and people working to keep it strong.

25:20 Jodi Edwards: From nine till about maybe eighteen, I was very angry. I was angry at the world. I was angry at people and I had my own reasons for that.

25:34 Tiahni Adamson: This is Doctor Jodi Edwards. She's a Yuin and Dharawal knowledge holder.

25:39 Jodi Edwards: And the only time I wasn't angry was when elders would sit down and talk to me about our culture. And so when an elder said, hey, do you want to come for a walk on country? Was, I guess, yes. And oh I want to tell you this story. Yes, I want to listen and …

26:00 Tiahni Adamson: Through a big journey herself, she's been working to educate and communicate parts of traditional knowledge that can be shared, so it can touch and connect with as many people as possible. Particularly our young ones. She's highly awarded for her language and culture work, an advocate for cultural education. Her 2021 PhD from Macquarie University explores Dharawal and Yuin cultural continuity.

26:25 Jodi Edwards: My understanding of our culture being taught by my Aunty is that in our country we were the Orcas.

26:37 Tiahni Adamson: Orcas, in case you didn't hear that, the all-powerful, deeply intelligent and matriarchal whales. And may I add, this story is specific to the aforementioned traditional custodian groups.

26:49 Jodi Edwards: And so, our story and our law, is wrapped in that women were given permission to go into the sea, to be the law people of the sea, to be the sea managers. To look after the sea, but they have to make sure that they always gave back to country to land people and how we know we became the women is because or cause go through menopause just like we go through menopause. Orcas can't lead their pods until they've gone through menopause.

27:27 Tiahni Adamson: Only five known animals experienced something called the Grandmother Effect: Orcas, Shortfin Pilot Whales, Belugas, Narwhals and human beings. A study from 2019 found that older postmenopausal female Orcas become leaders of their pods. Once a female orca goes through menopause, freed from the duties of reproduction, they critically help their pods to live longer through their support and the passing on of their knowledge and wisdom, they boost the resilience of the pod. This speaks to something bigger than the life of Orca pods or of menopause itself. It speaks to the power of knowledge and wisdom.

28:12 Jodi Edwards: When you were fifteen, how you thought about the world and then at twenty five, if you look back at the fifteen-year-old, you go oh there, maybe I didn't have that quite right. Maybe I need to finesse that. So, at 35 you have a starting to formulate a different opinion, a more worldly opinion. And by the time you're 45, you're really starting to get a matured approach. By the time you're 55, you look back at 35-year-old you and you go. Oh, my gosh, no wonder my Aunty said “Oh yeah, you'll learn. You'll learn in time”.

28:55 Tiahni Adamson: We've all heard the sentiment passed down from those senior to us. I'll tell you when you older. And it's something we've touched on throughout this episode. But Jodi fears the modern world is standing in the way of that process.

29:08 Jodi Edwards: Some things you had to wait to be able to be given those knowledges and I think that's one of the pitfalls now is people have access to knowledges because they've been put in books, they've been put in on websites. But the rite of passage of our children has been taken away from them. Some things you wouldn't have been told till you were a young woman. But we've got to start with our kids, young, to teach them. So, they've got that rite of passage, even though, you know, we're not going through rituals anymore and practising ceremonies.

29:50 Tiahni Adamson: Which reinforces the importance of the on-country trips happening on Martu country and around Australia, which create more opportunities for people to access country with their elders. And Jo's work with the Integrated Knowledge System providing access to knowledge through modern formats.

30:09 Jodi Edwards: Until you are potentially an elder and you get the whole part of the story. Some stories and some things that you're told in country, you get to work out when you're a little bit older, you're told because they're for your ears only. And just because you know something that doesn't mean that's your right to pass it on. And on and it's almost like a trust thing. Well, we're going to give them that. What are they going to do with it? Although some men have started to reawaken that process. But that's men’s business. I think it's important that we have opportunities for our kids to go back to country. So I guess everything I do is to make sure kids are connected to culture at a young age.

31:10 Tiahni Adamson: In this episode, we've covered lots of ground. It's been a journey, so I'm going to use one of the old ways to help you remember why cultural knowledge is important and what solutions are are available to us to ensure it continues to evolve and brings outcomes for people and the planet, even under the pressures of climate change. For this exercise, I want you to conjure up your favourite place in the bush. If you're not driving, maybe shut your eyes. What does this place feel, look and sound like and if the bush tucker is ripe, what does it taste like? While most of the themes discussed are interwoven, we're going to revisit each learning of the episode and memorize it by tying it to a part of your favourite place in the bush. To begin, we learned that through elders like Aunty Ber and programs such as Yanalangami reconnecting to culture and building confidence in ourselves is crucial to the persistence of knowledge.

32:17 Aunty Bernice Hookey: Walk tall and proud, even through the tough times, even through the heartache.

32:23 Tiahni Adamson: In your happy place in the bush, is there a tree that's resilient to the weather? That tree that stands tall despite it all, that tree that might have been there for centuries, its roots winding deep through the earth, keeping it strong. Next, how do you actually get to your special place in the bush? What path do you take to access it? Let's store the story about the Martu women on your path or walkway to the special place. To reiterate the importance of being able to access country and the role of practice in maintaining culture.

33:01 Annette Williams: So, this is the story about the ladies coming out here enjoying ourselves.

33:07 Tiahni Adamson: Then we move to the proper storage and adaptation of knowledge over time. Can you think of a species in your special place that stores nutrients to help it survive during seasonal changes? Keep Jo's story here.

33:19 Jo Griffin: Be informed by the cultural knowledge to make better decisions.

33:25 Tiahni Adamson: The Integrated Knowledge system and the culturally relevant climate change adaptation project. Finally, which species has a beautiful song? One that needs to be listened to. This is where Jodie's story can live, along with her love for educating and being heard by the next generation.

33:47 Jodie Williams: In our country, we were the Orcas.

33:50 Tiahni Adamson: And remember, as you continue on your path, learning about cultural knowledge, you can always add, adjust, unlearn, reframe, and amend parts of this story. One thing this episode has taught me is that no matter what pressures threaten knowledge, it is very much an alive and resilient force. Next time you go to that happy place of yours, look around, be present and spare a thought. Knowledge lives on.

I'd like to acknowledge the 2,500 generations of resilient custodians and carers of country who have come before us. I'm in constant admiration of their strength and resilience, determination and passion. We would like to acknowledge the Traditional Custodians of all the lands that you're listening in from today and acknowledge their deep physical and spiritual connection to this land, sea, country, flora, fauna and one another. Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people have lived harmoniously on this land in perfect balance with our natural systems for upwards of 60,000 years. I'd like to acknowledge my ancestors who stand by my side with me every day and hold me strong as well as the ancestors of this land, who allow us to gather, grow, share ideas and connect with one another on their country.

This episode was produced by the legendary Bee Stephens, Will Sacre and myself Tiahni Adamson, with help from Jill Rischbieth. Thanks to our guests for this episode, Aunty Bernice Hookey, Annette Williams, Yvonne Ashwin, Jennifer Morgan, Stella Shipway, Jo Griffin and Jodi Edwards. We're so grateful to the Birriliburu Ranger women for allowing us onto their country for a beautiful week in the bush. This episode was mixed by Mike Williams with original scoring by Mike Williams and Timothy Nicastri. Our theme music was generously contributed by the Orbweavers. Thanks to Rory Noke from PodBooth Adelaide for his expertise and great guidance.

To find out more about Bush Heritage and our partnership work, visit the link in the show notes. Thanks for joining us for Big Sky Country, a podcast by Bush Heritage. Next time on Big Sky Country, the final episode of Season 3 and one of my favourites, we dive into the ocean to explore the extraordinary journey of loggerhead turtles migrating humpback whales, blue carbon and much more.